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Post by supersausagedog on Jul 16, 2010 12:42:36 GMT -5
As I have mentioned the fiend can be fairly skilled. It has the speed increase from consecutive pounces and the ability to curve mid-air, as well as the thrill of hunting (not skilled as such but very cool).
However, there are also two very negative different techniques that can be used. One is melee rushing, the other is crouch camping.
The fiend is really fast and has a really strong melee. Used in combination, these can be deadly and can easily wipe out people by hitting w+m1. The two things that need changing to avert this are reducing fiend max damage to 45 from 55. Thus reducing 2 hitting to 3 hitting. Secondly, its impossible to fight back after being hit between the first and second hits. To avoid this, the amount of red that covers the screen after being hit should be decreased. Making fiend move slower could also be a solution, possibly.
No one likes crouch camping, just wait for a slayer to walk along and destroy them. I have said that this is a good way of making slayers take varied routes previously, but it does have too much potential for noobery.
I think directly correlating the distance a fiend has travelled in a jump with his damage dealt from that jump would fix this problem. After a reasonably jump length this damage would be enough to get an instant kill. Also, if jumping immediatley after another jump has finished damage would be preserved.
Another option is correlating velocity and damage directly, but this would probably make the class impossible for people who aren't hyper-pro, rather than just removing skilless kills.
Finally, and probably most controversailly, does the fiend even need to be able to walk at all? Why not just make it pounce everywhere.
NOTE: I main fiend.
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kaneangel
Milk teeth
do you want some water with your sake?
Posts: 41
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Post by kaneangel on Jul 16, 2010 12:47:27 GMT -5
fiends make me cry my huge cross hair cant find their heads
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Post by Ever on Jul 16, 2010 13:10:43 GMT -5
I was about to say the same thing. Fiend is pretty dangerous. Mad air control + insta kill + crouch cloaking = too much, regardless of his low health. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to being dominated; we were doing fine 2v2, but the only explanation for it is that the vamps were either very unskilled, or deliberately not using a winning strategy. The potential for destruction with the fiend as it is outrageous.  You run into this sort of thing whenever there's instant-kill stuff involved, and there's no good way to balance that kind of death cannon. See: CSS; how do you beat an awp? With another awp - but the Slayers haven't got one. The problem may not become apparent until the you get some super pros playing the game, but when it does, nothing will be able to prepare you for the devastation. |
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Post by Deacon on Jul 16, 2010 13:16:10 GMT -5
My E-penis...
It's gone...
Could someone put a black streak over my name or something?
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Post by supersausagedog on Jul 16, 2010 13:17:34 GMT -5
Haha, thats exactly the same example techno used a few days back.
Oh, I should point out that as you were playing capture the cow the data you see will be quite different. I always play survival/elimanation, thus meaning that there is no respawns, and thus instant kills work differently.
And so we're all on the same page, removing the ability to instant kill or giving the slayers one (although actually headshots with deadeye and meatshots with reaver) is not a solution in my opinion.
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Post by The Technoviking on Jul 16, 2010 13:20:52 GMT -5
Off the top of my head (can't remember the exact numbers without looking at the code) Average damage is 45 with a +/- 10 damage spread (giving you the 55 damage max you noticed). With 35-55 damage (20 spread), you would need to roll 50 or higher (50-55) twice for your two hitter, 5/20*5/20 = .0625 = 6.25% chance for a 2 hitter (assuming 100 % health). Doesn't really have anything to do with anything... just some fun behind the scenes Coven math  I think it is pretty hard to argue with the crouch camping. That is the one Fiend mechanic that is most frustrating to players. |
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Post by Izzysinz on Jul 16, 2010 13:31:19 GMT -5
While i agree mostly with sausage crouch camping has its benefits. I will mention that as a fiend on my own i feel akin to the old days of hidden where you are severely outnumbered and stealth is the best tactic. While it should not be overused i believe it has its place (ALong with hiddens, Pig sticking) as an atatck to even the odds.
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Post by The Technoviking on Jul 16, 2010 13:33:14 GMT -5
Mad air control + insta kill + crouch cloaking = too much, regardless of his low health. This is an interesting point. I don't think anyone has brought up the issue of the crouch cloak as a balancing variable for the Fiend. |
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Post by supersausagedog on Jul 16, 2010 14:40:06 GMT -5
Off the top of my head (can't remember the exact numbers without looking at the code) Average damage is 45 with a +/- 10 damage spread (giving you the 55 damage max you noticed). With 35-55 damage (20 spread), you would need to roll 50 or higher (50-55) twice for your two hitter, 5/20*5/20 = .0625 = 6.25% chance for a 2 hitter (assuming 100 % health). Doesn't really have anything to do with anything... just some fun behind the scenes Coven math I think it is pretty hard to argue with the crouch camping. That is the one Fiend mechanic that is most frustrating to players. When it comes to balance, math has everything to do with everything, however, you are wrong. Me and kane just ran some tests, the damage often goes as high as 63, and appeared to have a 4 in 5 chance of two hitting. This is significantly different from what you said. Additionally, when talking about such low numbers as 2 or 3, where any change can make the slighest difference, I don't think things should be left to chance. It should always be a three hit, otherwise its too unpredictable, which is only ok for rapid fire weapons or shotguns. |
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Post by Ever on Jul 16, 2010 14:53:35 GMT -5
If you wanted to keep the insta-kill for the fiend, there would be ways to make it less unreasonable. Make him scream - sure, it'd remind everybody of the L4D hunter - but it would give the Slayer a little more of a chance. Alternately, you could remove the crazy air control - it'd make a lot of people angry, but it would also make the pounce more tactical. A cooldown on the death pounce would have the same effect.
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Post by supersausagedog on Jul 16, 2010 14:55:09 GMT -5
If you wanted to keep the insta-kill for the fiend, there would be ways to make it less unreasonable. Make him scream - sure, it'd remind everybody of the L4D hunter - but it would give the Slayer a little more of a chance. Alternately, you could remove the crazy air control - it'd make a lot of people angry, but it would also make the pounce more tactical. A cooldown on the death pounce would have the same effect. What that makes no sense! Removing air control would make it less skilled which isn't ever a fix for anything. I seriosuly think distance traveled effecting damage is the best limitation here. Also, as I suggested on the old forums but isn't repeated here anywhere, the avenger class should be able to barrel roll out of the way of pounces. |
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Post by Izzysinz on Jul 16, 2010 14:56:32 GMT -5
Agree on the point
Not that i think its needs balancing. If anything it needs the swipe attacks a little remastered as do all the vamps. Just something to make melee a tad more skillfull
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Post by Renaissance on Jul 16, 2010 17:28:27 GMT -5
Good gosh ppl... I do feel the need to point out it is designed to be balanced around team play. What fun is TF2 in a 2 v 1 game? Around the zero point, ie the first few players, you will have all kindsa unbalance. This mod is more like Starcraft with different class possibilities, leading to things like the zergrush right in the beginning. There is much more balance in a 4 v 4 where the slayers can group up and defend a roving zone. Its pretty nice when you get a good group of slayers shootin shit outta the sky and usin holy water defensively in the crowd, makin good use of UV checkin for cloaked ambushes etc. Full team strats do take a lil practice but are worth it! The fiend IS a bit much at times, but then there are gameplay features in the works and still being added, the new gore being an example. There are more adds like this to come. So before we decide that something needs to be done... I know we are all just throwin out thoughts though, so I'll just say that I promise we will hear your every word and make sure your vision of the game is realized  <3's always, Ren |
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kaneangel
Milk teeth
do you want some water with your sake?
Posts: 41
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Post by kaneangel on Jul 16, 2010 19:41:20 GMT -5
Good gosh ppl... I do feel the need to point out it is designed to be balanced around team play. What fun is TF2 in a 2 v 1 game? Around the zero point, ie the first few players, you will have all kindsa unbalance. This mod is more like Starcraft with different class possibilities, leading to things like the zergrush right in the beginning. There is much more balance in a 4 v 4 where the slayers can group up and defend a roving zone. Its pretty nice when you get a good group of slayers shootin shit outta the sky and usin holy water defensively in the crowd, makin good use of UV checkin for cloaked ambushes etc. Full team strats do take a lil practice but are worth it! The fiend IS a bit much at times, but then there are gameplay features in the works and still being added, the new gore being an example. There are more adds like this to come. So before we decide that something needs to be done... I know we are all just throwin out thoughts though, so I'll just say that I promise we will hear your every word and make sure your vision of the game is realized <3's always, Ren all coming form someone ive only ever seen play the mod twice out bursts liek this are going to ge tme banned i know it but you know... |
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Post by Izzysinz on Jul 16, 2010 19:46:11 GMT -5
He tests the game regularly and plays a huge part in how its made. I would assume that people that think up the classes would have a fair old view on how they are supposed to work
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