Questions

[Ever]

Saw you on moddb, didn't know about the mod until now. I used to be a big fan of Vampire Slayer. I got the older version and checked it out. My questions are for 3.0

Is this version going to include proper weapon models, or still the HL2 stuff? If still the HL2 stuff, then will it be compatible with custom models for HL2/HL2DM with relatively little hassle? (It's a deal breaker for me)

Also is it still only three maps?

Do you have proper player models? (I didn't see any servers to join with 2.5, so I didn't get to see what the models were)

And on a totally unrelated note, I remember in the distant past - 2, 3 years ago maybe - there was a Source Mod about vampires/slayers in development that had a lot of good media (models/players/weapons) and features like ironsights - but I'm not aware of it ever being released. Do you guys have anything to do with that/know anything about that? I ask because Coven seems like a like-minded mod.

[Deacon]

I believe the mod you are referring to is Return to Church? I might be wrong.

Version 3.0 is currently out: covenmod.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=announcements&action=display&thread=1&page=1

There are currently no proper player models, only re-skins, the devs might have something in the making... But I wouldn't know, and I doubt they'll tell if they do or don't

It's still hl2 stuff, 'cept for the beautiful double-barreled shotgun.

[The Technoviking]

Yeah, it is technically compatible with any custom content.

There were about 4 or so VS type mods floating around. RTS and Coven are the only ones currently still being developed to my knowledge. I was in contact with Dead of Night, but they are no longer working that I know of.

I think you can put together the relationship between good media and actually putting out a mod...

Are ironsights a feature? That is basically copy/paste code developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Ironsights

[Ever]

Thanks for the quick answers. No, Return to Church isn't it - anyway, I'm sure the mod I'm thinking of died long ago, I was just curious, because it looked ace. But it wouldn't be the first great-looking mod to go out with a whimper.

I'm getting 3.0 - will there be servers, or do I need to check back here for a scheduled match?

[The Technoviking]

Yep. There are 3 servers floating around that I know of. 1 is US and 2 are UK.

[Ever]

Cool, I just took it for a spin, though nobody was playing. Mapping wasn't the most sophisticated, but I like it anyway because it reminds of me of VS. The map itself was also a little reminiscent of a VS one I liked - yamamansion, or somesuch. Anyway, are you guys open to suggestions?

[kaneangel]

i have a hamachi server sometimes

[The Technoviking]

It's what the boards are for!

We love the community discussion of Coven.

[kaneangel]

yuck iron sights

[Ever]

Glad to hear it.

Not quite sure where to start. This is no particular order of importance, so I'm just going to put it all out there.

Shotguns don't have clips - in fact, very few weapons do. Pump-action shotguns use internal magazines. It's not a big deal, but it looks unprofessional. (Referring to the slayer selection window descriptions.) The only weapons that use clips are Revolvers (speedloaders) and older bolt rifles, mostly bolt-action (Enfield/Kar 98) - or semi-automatics like the M1 Garand or SKS. But none of that is important.

Weapon models. They're a big deal - if you have a modeler and a skinner, you've got to put them to work. If you don't, that's not good, but there are still things you can do. There's a ridiculous amount of third-party models for Source. The really super ace AAA stuff - like Kimono and Millenia's, you probably can't get your hands on, but there's a lot of half-decent looking stuff out there that'll take you a lot farther than HL2 defaults. You would be surprised what you can get just by asking - I managed to get some great content in the past just by going on FPSB and sending some private messages: "Hey, would you mind if I used your (insert model) in a mod?" It's a hassle in its own way - you have to get permission from everybody involved in the release - but it's worth it. Even if all you have are second-tier custom jobs with default animations, your media screenshots still get a big boost - and at the end of the day it's the screenshots that get you the downloads. And the worst that can happen is that the person you ask for their model says no.

Player models. They're more of a problem than weapons, probably - but still not impossible to get. Even if you can't find anyone willing to donate quality custom work, you can still re-color what you've got - the rebel models from HL2 are very conducive to this. Action Half-Life 2 didn't really do all that well, but the simply-reskinned default models looked excellent. The bottom line is that almost anything is better than having Combine run around in a Vampire mod. And nothing kills the mood faster than Combine sounds, either.

My solution for sounds is the same as everything else - if you don't want to/can't make your own, get them somewhere else. (with permission, of course) There are lots of very small things that can cumulatively improve your presentation, and sounds are one of them. I personally have a fetish for powerful-sounding guns. Good sound design in a trailer makes an impression, even if it's just a great gunshot here and there. I'd also recommend some suitably icky vampire sounds. Combine sounds are unforgivable. There's also a lot of unlicensed music floating around out there, and all you need to use it is to credit the composer somewhere. Get some creepy menu music. Presentation isn't everything, but don't underestimate it.

Maps. I like your maps because they bring out the nostalgia in me, but they aren't top tier. (No hate implied.) They certainly aren't bad enough to be a deal breaker, and in spite of being basic in some ways, I think they actually nail the atmosphere, which is great. But they don't blow your mind, and there aren't very many of them. Fortunately - I'll bet you saw this coming - there are a lot of maps made for source that never even see the light of day, much less regular gameplay. If I were you, I'd take a look around FPSB, or wherever you like - but you'll see some creepy maps - and that would be a great way to add diversity to your map list. If you ask 20 mappers and only 1 says yes, you've still increased your mod's map portfolio by 25%, and it wouldn't take a lot of modification to make a HL2DM map work with Coven.

Also with regard to maps, remember your scaling. Remember the mod with the invisible guy? The Hidden? Well, it had some snazzy gigantic maps - but the one we all loved to play on back in the day was the tiny little sewer map that probably took a week to make. It's good to include maps for all match sizes, and in my experience, it's the smaller ones you can learn faster that become the favorites. de_dust/ctf_2fort/ts_lobby/the hidden one in the sewer, etc.

Also, one thing that made VS metal was that the slayers were people with names and backstories - they had individuality, which gave the mod soul. Categories like 'Avenger' don't quite do that - but that could change if he had some imagery or something to go with him.

This mod's kind of strange - you seem to have your code down great, but not so much in the art department. It's usually the other way around - "we've got all these guns and maps, but no idea how to make it all work..." etc. But the visual trimmings and things that it'd take to make this mod look presentable are all out there for the taking. There's some work involved - getting all the permissions, making the modifications, dealing with animations and the like, but it beats learning to model and skin from scratch.

I'm glad you linked to the ironsights code, so I don't have to. I highly recommend it. Ironsights are still in vogue, and they're a feature worth having if you don't have any specific reason not to include them. (Though at the moment you do; the HL2 defaults are only modeled on the left side, so the ironsight code won't have a good effect on them.)

Anyway, without actually playing the mod with people, I can't comment on gameplay.

Coding and gameplay are more important than visuals, but not to the point that they can go out at night by themselves. I'm sure the HL2 stuff is merely placeholding for you - think of my recommendations as being for better placeholders. Naturally ignore them all if you've got great original models cooking I don't know about.

Also consider slowing down your versions. If it's 3.0 already and you still don't have weapon models, it's going to be version 500.0 before you have what most mods would call an internal beta.

Sorry if I sound like a punk, that isn't my intention. Just throwing that stuff out there. I like the looks of your mod, and I'll keep an eye out for a server with people in it.

[Deacon]

I think the devs said something earlier about including the public within the very early stages of the game on the old forum.

If you play this game, with people, you'll notice it is grand even without models, or mindblowing visuals.

[Izzysinz]

You dont sound like a punk at all its great to add new opinions but i shall clear something sup form my perspective as a small part of the team.

The objective of the team was to put out something playable before worrying about aesthetic design. This means people get to enjoy the development process with us and we personally prefer it this way. This is not to say we dont intend to add models yet but rather explains why there is a lack of content.

As for asking around for maps, models and player models this is something i personally refuse to do as i find it extremely unprofessional and half the fun is having CUSTOM content. I know a few members of the community will disagree on the gorunds that they want it all and the y want it now but we are all heading to the same destination, just we choose to take the scenic route.

After you play coven 3.0 for a little while im sure you will agree iron sights would be a bad addition, the game is far too fast paced for them to be of real use and i think they are an over used medium.

As for the map scaling i understand completely what your saying but with the fiend pouncing and a lot of the vampire mechanics i have personally found coven to work best on larger maps. This does not generally mean huge fields of architecture but generally putting distance between the teams and select paths to make sure no one round ever plays the same.

Independent characters with backstories is something i am with you 100% on. Ive always believed that was one of vampire slayers finest points and have been niggling Ren about it for a while.

We have modellers behind the scenes but maybe it is time to expand to pick up the work load although i hope you will agree when i say that when you find a team of guys who get along well it is far more important that having twice that who just correspond. In the coven team is a nice friendly atmosphere which makes the jobs fun.

I hope i havent seemed to dismiss your points, i have taken them in but i am now just putting across a view from my side of the fence.

Anyway i look forward to playing a game with you at some point and seeing how you enjoy the gameplay as that is what makes this mod a favourite for a lot of people

[Ever]

Modellers behind the scenes - good deal. As long as you've got some kind of plan, I can't beef.

I just remember the ill-fated mod Distraction Half-Life; you may have heard of it. They had some code, and some models, but got hung up - particularly on the visual stuff. That, combined with poor leadership, and general inflexibility in the team led to the mod never getting anywhere near its considerable potential. As a beta tester I had a unique view - and sense of helplessness - as the team slowly spiraled and crashed, mostly due to things that a little common sense could have fixed. In the end they released a ridiculous, half-finished mess, one of the earmarks of which was the lack of proper models. I don't imply that similar fate awaits you, I merely found the experience traumatic, and I can't help but flash back to it when I see a mod without shiny guns.

Anyway I'll get in game just as soon as I can find some working replacements - might be a while with FPSB acting up - but then I'll surely have more to whine about. Thanks for listening.

[Izzysinz]

haha! Pretty sure we all know a mod like that one way or another. With us we know our flaws pretty well but we dont intend to rush ahead. Although reading your point now about 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 im thinking it would make sense to at least call it a beta so people do not get the wrong ideas. Anyway thankyou immensely for your comments. Even if they are not always what we like to hear they are always helpful and its insightful to see opinions of a new community member for a change. steamcommunity.com/groups/covenmod - Link to the community group so you will be up to date when we run dev games and so on

[kaneangel]

do models really matter that much to you?

i could be using bananas as guns for all i care